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Germany nixes surveillance pact with US, Britain (yahoo.com)
96 points by stfu on Aug 2, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 26 comments


Just symbolic politics, as our Foreign Minister himself stated:

"He said the move was largely symbolic since the agreement had not been invoked since the end of the Cold War[...]"

So, as there are upcoming elections, I believe, that they try to appear doing something at least/at all, while not ping off the Americans, or the Brits.


> the agreement had not been invoked since the end of the Cold War

And now it can't be invoked in the future either, which is great.

It doesn't matter to me if it was unused anyway. A large part of what makes me nervous about these sorts of agreements is their potential for future abuse. Same reason the UK pornwall is unnerving. Not for what it did yesterday or does today, but for what it might do tomorrow.


Wars have been started (and ended) by symbolic acts.

Symbolic does not equate meaningless.

This is the loudest "fuck you" Germany has given the US in half a century.

In 20 years time, we may look back at this symbolic gesture as being the first act in Germany finally ridding itself of the remains of US occupation.


  This is the loudest "fuck you" Germany has given the US in half a century.
I doubt it. Surely, the refusal to go along with the phony reasoning to invade the Iraq[0] was more significant? That one resulted in that hilarious old/new Europe thing and Freedom Fries. As was the recent abstention regarding bombing Libya. I'm sure there are many economic conflicts that have been more serious as well.

And I suppose someone with some diplomatic background knowledge may be laughing at all of this because the real divisive issues are not discussed as publicly.

[0] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k_QbpFl7RM


>This is the loudest "fuck you" Germany has given the US in half a century.

From the article: >and would have no impact on current intelligence cooperation between Germany and its NATO allies.

No offense, but that's one pathetic "fuck you". "We're going to cancel an unsused cold war administrative policy while maintaining the current status quo on intelligence cooperation with our deep alliance".


>This is the loudest "fuck you" Germany has given the US in half a century.

Perhaps.

>In 20 years time, we may look back at this symbolic gesture as being the first act in Germany finally ridding itself of the remains of US occupation.

Germany's demand for inspection of its gold and subsequent demand for repatriation of German gold from the Fed was not a small thing.


Did actually anything come out of that? Any results?


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-16/bundesbank-to-repat...

"Bundesbank to Repatriate 674 Tons of Gold to Germany by 2020"

374 tons from France, and 300 from New York by 2020 apparently.

The Bundesbank is negotiating auditing rights with its partner central banks. Thiele said he visited all storage locations last year and the returning gold will be examined.


IIRC, A German court issued an order to the Bundesbank that Germany's gold bullion (including those held in foreign vaults) be audited. The access granted to the German auditors by they FRBNY wasn't satisfactory to the German authorities, and as a result the Germans decided to begin repatriation of a large portion of their gold (~300 tonnes, I think). A deal was struck to return the gold in batches over the next 7 years. I don't think there has been any conclusive proof of shady things, but of course there is a lot of speculation regarding the motives and facts surrounding the issue.

Some links in case you're curious:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/debate-breaks-ou...

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/rechnungshof-forde...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-politicia...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing...


The question is why 7 years? After all, the amount of gold to be returned is not that much!

"“In two months, we’ve brought 160 tons of gold valued at around $9 billion back to Venezuela,” http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-31/venezuela-receives-...

For anybody reading this, research gold leasing by bullion banks. In essence it's fractional reserve banking... and the issue is if nations demand their gold back, what if it's not there?


Not have been invoked since the cold war means they have something better and didn't need to invoke it.

I'd say that the loudest "fuck you" has been when Schroeder didn't join the invasion of Iraq.


> This is the loudest "fuck you" Germany has given the US in half a century.

Yea, and im pretty sure that in this very moment, the German administration is using each and every trusted channel to apologise for that symbolic act. And hope that they still get their share of sweet, sweet unconstitutional intel.


Apart form the unilateral adoption of constitution that defined German citizenship by "blood"

If they where serious they should have scraped national ID cards


But if it enables corrupt (mass surveillance pushing) politicians to get votes out of this and thus to remain in power, it becomes nefarious.


I seriously hope voters will punish them for pulling this one off.


They wont. Most Germans are happy with "lets see and wait"-Merkel.



Thank you because parent link always landed me at http://hosted.ap.org/specials/bluepage.html


TL;DR

A German official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the cancellation would have no practical consequences.

He said the move was largely symbolic since the agreement had not been invoked since the end of the Cold War and would have no impact on current intelligence cooperation between Germany and its NATO allies.


Almost every other paragraph in this article diminishes the strong-sounding headline

British Foreign Office brushed off the significance of the German move. "It's a loose end from a previous era which is right to tie up," the Foreign Office said in a statement, noting that the agreement had not been used since 1990.


If I read it correctly Germany canceled the contract from 1968 that allows US and UK intelligence to ask German intelligence about data collected with by the G10 law.

But the contract from 3. August 1959, that allows the US, US and France to collect as much data as they want, is still valid, and likely would only end with a peace treaty and end of German occupation.


The occupation ended with the General Treaty of 1955 (which still included some restrictions), and the regime of restrictions under the General Treaty ended with the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany and German reunification in 1991.


If you read 2+4 contract closely, then you realize that Germany is still a divided country, e.g. when it comes to US atomic missiles, and that 2+4 is not a peace treaty, nor does it end German occupation.

It was very difficult to find a news that tells what contract was canceled today. The basically canceled, if I'm right:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Beschr%C3%A4nkung_de...

So this cancel wont PRISM and the like, US gathering of intelligence is still legal in Germany.


> If you read 2+4 contract closely, then you realize that Germany is still a divided country, e.g. when it comes to US atomic missiles, and that 2+4 is not a peace treaty, nor does it end German occupation.

Treaties, by their nature, limit the parties in ways which they would not, as soveriegn states, be limited in the absence of the treaty. The fact that there are limits on what Germany can do (and what other parties can do in Germany) under the Final Settlement treaty does not make it any less a "peace treaty" than it would otherwise be. And it emphatically did end the occupation of (East) Germany (the occupation of West Germany was ended by General Treaty.)


It loads some weird page which proceeds to This page is a 403, forbidden page.


Meh, this is simply a symbolic move to win the election. Our govt cares jack shit that everything is monitored by foreign powers.




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