What about it? It's one of the oldest Neolithic settlements we've identified, but otherwise, it's not particularly unusual within our understanding of Neolithic Mesopotamia.
When GP is talking about "material culture", they're (probably) referring to the archaeological definition of culture, which means you need to give an explanation as to what makes an artifact indicative of belonging to a culture. The shape of an arrowhead perhaps, or maybe the kind of style used in painting pottery. Something that lets an archaeologist dig something up and go "aha, this is culture X!" Age isn't one of those characteristics.
But of course the province of pseudoarchaeology is to come up with a theory and work everything into evidence for that theory. Atlantis is old, Göbleki Tepe is old, therefore Göbleki Tepe is Atlantean!
> Skepticism is healthy, but why be dismissive of peoples' interest to consider or search for new evidence? What exactly is the risk?
Most of the people that tend to propose these theories aren't interested in searching for evidence. See for example, Graham Hancock, who has been peddling the same theory for 30 years and has done nothing to actually produce better evidence for it except to whine that mainstream archaeologists don't want to listen to him because they're stuck in their own stupid ways. (Of course, in that same time, mainstream archaeology has thoroughly demolished the Clovis-First hypothesis which was previously disfavored, precisely because the pre-Clovis adherents actually did the legwork to produce better evidence to make it more accepted!) You can also see this with archaeoastronomy, which is borderline fringe--its better practitioners have made some success by listening to the criticisms and persevering in efforts to get better, stronger evidence to buttress their claims. As a basic rule of thumb, if someone's response to criticism is to chide scientists for being rigid in their thinking rather than going out to try to get better evidence, then that's a strong sign they're engaged in pseudoscience and not science.
As for the risk, a lot of these theories bear a deep legacy of overt racism just begin their skin; they've historically been used to devalue the abilities of the people who've made them (e.g., Great Zimbabwe). Nowadays, they've been modified to edit out the basic message of "white people taught everybody how to civilization," so it's no longer quite as overt as their late 19th century ancestors... but you can still see the lingering traces of it in "an ancient civilization taught everybody how to civilization."
There is so much about your comment here that I appreciate (similar to your other reply to me). Thank you.
I wish I had time right now to thoughtfully ask a couple questions I have, but it will have to wait.
I am compelled to squeeze this in:
"As for the risk, a lot of these theories bear a deep legacy of overt racism just begin their skin; they've historically been used to devalue the abilities of the people who've made them (e.g., Great Zimbabwe). Nowadays, they've been modified to edit out the basic message of "white people taught everybody how to civilization," so it's no longer quite as overt as their late 19th century ancestors... but you can still see the lingering traces of it in "an ancient civilization taught everybody how to civilization.""
- Wow! Holy cow, I had no idea, and this hadn't remotely crossed my mind. If anything, I would have thought the opposite. (that evidence of incredible achievements by ancient civilizations would diminish [relatively] the achievements of modern ones).
So I read up on what you are saying and some of Hancock's past work, and I see how the theory could be seen as diminishing the accomplishments of indigenous cultures or denying their own capacity for innovation.
Prior to today, I hadn't read any of Graham Hancock's work and have no attachment to him or his theory.
I was under the impression that the younger dryas impact hypothesis was accepted by Geology (I actually learned from this thread that it's not). If one is to assume that the younger dryas was caused by cataclysmic meteorite impacts, then the idea that an ancient civilization was wiped out in said cataclysm seems plausible and triggered my curiosity.
Given that the impact hypothesis hasn't reached the burden of proof, then I am not sure what to make of it.
That said, I don't appreciate any implication that just because someone is interested in evidence of undiscovered pre younger dryas civilizations they are racist. Not speaking of Hancock specifically, but I would appreciate being able to have a conversation about the evidence without feeling like someone is implying I am racist because I am interested in it. (Keep in mind I wasn't the one who brought up Hancock)
What gets my goat, quite substantially, is that I love bad history/archeology in terms of fiction.
Like Howard and Lovecraft among others, loved this sort of stuff. "What if theres an entire missing age where heroes roamed around doing cool shit" yeah bro what if that shit rules.
They formed a lot of their worldview based on books that were already being discredited in their time. But its still amazing fiction.
The problem largely seems that people cant let it live in fiction.
>then the idea that an ancient civilization was wiped out in said cataclysm seems plausible and triggered my curiosity.
Yeah thats how they get you. It activates the neurons. That said, it would have had to atomise a lot of their society to prevent detection.
>That said, I don't appreciate any implication that just because someone is interested in evidence of undiscovered pre younger dryas civilizations they are racist.
The problem is that, since around the 1950s we have had pretty much perfect knowledge of the planet. Small notes of our understanding can change but we have been almost everywhere and done almost everything. Its really sad but its a fact.
There are really 2 strands of archaeology denial.
1. "I really wish there was more to explore, so I am going to make it up\become heavily invested in a made up history"
2. "I dont think those people could have discovered stacking rocks without help"
1. Can be fine in fiction, but 2. is just gross tbh. And terribly, the people in group 1, are largely basing their understanding on work done by group 2. Its hard to overstate how frequently racist nonsense is bubbling just underneath this.
So while yeah, you might resent the implication by some commenters that you are in some way racist, the fault lies largely with the fact that you are standing, possibly blindfolded, in a big crowd thats like 99% racist by volume. It might be rude to assume, but its also generally a fairly accurate assumption that tends to work without issue.
Something to keep in mind. A lot of YDIH people end up as "Mud Flooders" people whose ur-conspiracy involves the entire planet being covered in 20 meters of mud during the YD. These people then spin off everything in that manner. Flat earth, tartaria, etc etc. Its quite a slippery brain slope.
What about it? It's one of the oldest Neolithic settlements we've identified, but otherwise, it's not particularly unusual within our understanding of Neolithic Mesopotamia.
When GP is talking about "material culture", they're (probably) referring to the archaeological definition of culture, which means you need to give an explanation as to what makes an artifact indicative of belonging to a culture. The shape of an arrowhead perhaps, or maybe the kind of style used in painting pottery. Something that lets an archaeologist dig something up and go "aha, this is culture X!" Age isn't one of those characteristics.
But of course the province of pseudoarchaeology is to come up with a theory and work everything into evidence for that theory. Atlantis is old, Göbleki Tepe is old, therefore Göbleki Tepe is Atlantean!
> Skepticism is healthy, but why be dismissive of peoples' interest to consider or search for new evidence? What exactly is the risk?
Most of the people that tend to propose these theories aren't interested in searching for evidence. See for example, Graham Hancock, who has been peddling the same theory for 30 years and has done nothing to actually produce better evidence for it except to whine that mainstream archaeologists don't want to listen to him because they're stuck in their own stupid ways. (Of course, in that same time, mainstream archaeology has thoroughly demolished the Clovis-First hypothesis which was previously disfavored, precisely because the pre-Clovis adherents actually did the legwork to produce better evidence to make it more accepted!) You can also see this with archaeoastronomy, which is borderline fringe--its better practitioners have made some success by listening to the criticisms and persevering in efforts to get better, stronger evidence to buttress their claims. As a basic rule of thumb, if someone's response to criticism is to chide scientists for being rigid in their thinking rather than going out to try to get better evidence, then that's a strong sign they're engaged in pseudoscience and not science.
As for the risk, a lot of these theories bear a deep legacy of overt racism just begin their skin; they've historically been used to devalue the abilities of the people who've made them (e.g., Great Zimbabwe). Nowadays, they've been modified to edit out the basic message of "white people taught everybody how to civilization," so it's no longer quite as overt as their late 19th century ancestors... but you can still see the lingering traces of it in "an ancient civilization taught everybody how to civilization."