Conda? Mamba? Or should I use Venv? What are the commands to “activate” an environment? And why do I have to do that anyway, given thats not needed in any other programming language? Which of those systems support nested dependencies properly? Do any of them support the dependency graph containing multiple, mutually incompatible copies of the same package?
Coming from rust (and nodejs before that), the package management situation in python feels like a mess. It’s barely better than C and C++ - both of which are also a disaster. (Make? Autotools? CMake? Use vendored dependencies? System dependencies? Which openblas package should I install from apt? Are any of them recent enough? Kill me.)
Node: npm install. npm start.
Rust: cargo run. Cargo run —-release.
I don’t want to pick from 18 flavours of “virtual environments” that I have to remember how to to “activate”. And I don’t want to deal with transitive dependency conflicts, and I don’t want to be wading through my distro’s packages to figure out how to manually install dependencies.
I just want to run the program. Python and C both make that much more difficult than it needs to be.
Honest question, as I don't follow rust, does the cargo package manager handle non-rust dependencies? I've played around with it enough that I can say it's for sure a joy to use, but what if your rust program has to link against a very specific combination of versions of, say, Nvidia drivers and openssl and blas?
In general solving such environments (where some versions are left floating or only have like >= requirements) is an NP-hard problem. And it requires care and has to draw source code and/or binaries from various sources.
This is the problem that conda/mamba solves.
If you just want to install python packages, use pip+virtualenv. It's officially supported by python. And while pip has traditionally been a mess, there's been a bunch of active development lately, the major version number has gone from like 9.xx to 23.xx in like the past two or three years. They are trying, better late than never, especially for an ecosystem as developed as python's.
So, if you want to compare rust/cargo, and it handles non-rust deps, then the equivalent is conda. Otherwise, it's virtualenv+pip. I don't think there are any other serious options, but I agree that two is not necessarily better than one in this case. Not defending this state of affairs, just pointing out which would be the relevant comparison to rust.
> Honest question, as I don't follow rust, does the cargo package manager handle non-rust dependencies?
You can run arbitrary code at build time, and you can link to external libraries. For the likes of C libraries, you’ll typically bind to the library and either require that it be installed locally already, or bundle its source and compile it yourself (most commonly with the `cc` crate), or support both techniques (probably via a feature flag). The libsqlite3-sys crate is a fairly complex example of offering both, if you happen to want to look at an actual build.rs and Cargo.toml and the associated files.
> [pip’s] major version number has gone from like 9.xx to 23.xx in like the past two or three years.
It skipped from 10.0.1 to 18.0 in mid-2018, and the “major” part has since corresponded to the year it was released in, minus 2000. (Look through the table of contents in https://pip.pypa.io/en/stable/news/ to see all this easily.)
Yeah, no… my current $DAYJOB has a confusing mix of nx, pnpm, npm commands in multiple projects. Python is bad but node is absolutely not a good example.
Eh. Node / npm on its own is generally fine, especially if you use a private package repository for internally shared libraries. The problems show up when compiling javascript for the web as well as nodejs. If you stick to server side javascript using node and npm, it all works pretty well. It’s much nicer than venv / conda. And it handles transitive dependency conflicts and all sorts of wacky problems.
It’s just that almost nobody does that.
What we want instead is to combine typescript, js bundlers, wasm, es modules and node packages all together to make web apps. And that’s more than enough to bring seasoned engineers to tears. Let alone adding in svelte / solidjs compilation on top of all that. I have sweats just thinking about it.
> If you stick to server side javascript using node and npm, it all works pretty well.
Rose colored glasses if you ask me. The difference is it seems you use Node often (daily?) and have rationalized the pain. Same goes for everyone defending Python (which I’m sorta in that camp, full disclosure), they are just used to the worts and have muscle memory for how to work around them just like you seem to be able to do with Node.
> Rose colored glasses if you ask me. The difference is it seems you use Node often (daily?) and have rationalized the pain.
It’s not just that. Node can also handle arbitrary dependency graphs, including transitive dependency conflicts, sibling dependencies and dev dependencies. And node doesn’t need symlink hacks to find locally installed dependencies. Node packages have also been expected to maintain semver compatibility from inception. They’re usually pretty good about it.
Coming from rust (and nodejs before that), the package management situation in python feels like a mess. It’s barely better than C and C++ - both of which are also a disaster. (Make? Autotools? CMake? Use vendored dependencies? System dependencies? Which openblas package should I install from apt? Are any of them recent enough? Kill me.)
Node: npm install. npm start.
Rust: cargo run. Cargo run —-release.
I don’t want to pick from 18 flavours of “virtual environments” that I have to remember how to to “activate”. And I don’t want to deal with transitive dependency conflicts, and I don’t want to be wading through my distro’s packages to figure out how to manually install dependencies.
I just want to run the program. Python and C both make that much more difficult than it needs to be.