Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
Still no violation of Lorentz symmetry, despite strongest test yet (phys.org)
125 points by dnetesn on Dec 23, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 31 comments


Lorentz invariance appears naturally in practically all theories with waves - its violation would be a huge surprise.

To see it, understand STR, the perfect model is sine-Gordon: just many coupled pendula - we get particles ("kinks") with rest mass, which are created/annihilated in pairs, the mass grows exactly like in STR and is released while annihilation ... while moving these particles undergo Lorentz contraction (speed is limited by speed of massless waves) and oscillating particles ("breathers") slow down (time dilation) - exactly like in STR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine-Gordon_equation

"Universe model with a drill" ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl5Qq5kUbEE

Animation of kink-antikink annihilation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_defect#Images


I feel like this is a common misconception amongst some physicists. Lorentz invariance doesn't "appear naturally" in modern theories depending on how you develop it. Usually, one chooses a lagrangian that yields a lorentz invariant action and so all physical laws and thus solutions are lorentz invariant consequently. Lorentz invariance is a fundamental assumption...upheld by experiment. Those theories will then admit solutions (usually linearized ones (read quantized)) that appear as waves.


There are lots of non-relativistic models using waves. Nothing special about them. The most compelling argument for relativity is causality. You can reconstruct spacetime – up to conformal transformations – just from the causality relations. I can’t even imagine what physics would be like w/o causality.


GR does not imply causality nor does it enforce it. In fact GR works in a non-causal universe without a problem.

2 very sensitive measurements conducted within the past year seem to suggest (if GR is true), that we are in a universe that lacks causality. 2/3 LIGO detections imply one of the merging pair of black holes should be a naked singularity.

GR allows naked singularities. It models them fine. GR just stops being globally deterministic.

If you look up the history of GR some mathematicians in 50's made some really weird proposals for non-causal universes that would appear locally causal. But there isn't a way to test this. So it is more pure mathematics or philosophy then physics.


> there isn't a way to test this

http://mnras.oxfordjournals.org/content/162/4/307.abstract discusses observables of such metrics, especially Gödel's.

A 2009 overview (postdating COBE, for example): http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0004-637X/703/1/35... (preprint: https://arxiv.org/abs/0902.4575)

> 2/3 LIGO detections imply one of the merging pair of black holes should be a naked singularity.

Where did you get that from?

It's sure not prominent on the caltech or mit sites, or indeed in Pretorius et al. https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.08955


> 2/3 LIGO detections imply one of the merging pair of black holes should be a naked singularity.

Where did you get this impression? All of the LIGO results are consistent with "standard" GR black holes whose event horizons merge.



Thanks for the links. I find it unfortunate that often in science (and especially with the LIGO data) much is written about what could possibly be lurking in the data but isn't actually favored over our current understanding.

This creates more interest, but can obfuscate what the real situation in the field is. In this case, while Gravastars are certainly something many scientists actively do and should consider, there is no real evidence from the LIGO data that favors the hypothesis of "we are in a universe that lacks causality" over the observation of the merger of two Kerr black holes.


I think you're being a bit harsh. Is there any empirical evidence that favors classic black holes over gravastars, or is our "current understanding" just a matter of what we thought of first? If the latter, take a chill pill and let us enjoy the possibilities. :)


> Is there any empirical evidence that favors classic black holes over gravastars

Yes.

http://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.94.084... (preprint: https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.08759)

So you're still left with gravastar models that can co-exist with black holes.


> GR does not imply causality nor does it enforce it. In fact GR works in a non-causal universe without a problem.

One of the key assumptions of GR is that spacetime is globally hyperbolic. This implies causality. You can’t guarantee solutions of the Einstein or Maxwell equations w/o this assumption.


>"really weird proposals for non-causal universes that would appear locally causal"

link?



If you restrict the speed of propagation of interactions (of massless waves), you nearly automatically get STR ... like in sine-Gordon model - speed of massive kinks becomes limited, and kinks are being contracted to zero while approaching this limit.


Can you please explain or provide a link? This sounds fascinating.


This was covered in my undergraduate (second-year) SR course. The idea is that if you accept that Maxwell's equations apply in all inertial frames (speed of light is constant) and that causality is conserved in all frames, the result is that Newtonian mechanics requires adjustments for effects that are called "special relativity".


http://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.523436

ED: This is the starting point of the Causal Set [1] program. Don’t ask me for details, I don’t know any. But the wikipedia article looks interesting. Seems they are trying to figure out how causality restricts models with some level of discreteness.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_sets


SRT?


I've meant special relativity.


Relevant piece of information as to why this is important:

> "Furthermore, so far, it has been impossible to conciliate in one common theory these two aspects of physics. To succeed in this quest, almost all unification theories predict a breaking of Lorentz symmetry."


Hmm, does this relate to the article from 6 days ago about the inability to find proton decay? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13201065


Is there a conservation law associated with Lorentz symmetry, the way there are conservation laws associated with other symmetries in physics (conservation of energy from symmetry under translation in time, conservation of angular momentum from symmetry under rotation, conservation of linear momentum from conservation under translation in space, and so on)?


Lorentz symmetry is associated with conservation of center of mass, see [1]

(Note that it's actually talking about Lorentz symmetry without rotations (called "Lorentz boosts"), because rotations are associated with another conservation, as you mentioned.)

[1] http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/12559/what-conser...


That's true for the Lagrangian written down in the excellent answer at stackexchange, but the equivalent Lagrangian of the Standard Model Extension (SME) (which is what is the topic of the Bourgoin et al. paper) is filled with additional terms.

For example, a minimal SME photon Lagrangian is developed in section II. A. of Kostelcky and Mewes @ https://arxiv.org/abs/0905.0031

The difference between a minimal SME (mSME) and the full SME is that the latter admits terms of any mass dimension greater than two, while mSME requires power-counting renormalizability (in order to be an effective field theory) so mSME admits only terms of dimension four. As a result mSME can only have a finite number of Lorentz invariance violation parameters, while SME can have an infinite number of them.

The bright side is that mSME can represent locally the Lagrangian in the physics.se answer you link to with a fixing of parameters; the dim side is that in general one does not want to do this a priori, precisely because the mSME is a tool to investigate whether the Lorentz SO(3,1; R) group is an exact feature of nature at every point, rather than postulating that it is (as the Standard Model does, and indeed as Special Relativity and General Relativity do).

For example, SME is useful for dealing with things like this: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bumblebee_models#/Lagrangian where the non-matter term might not reduce (via GL(4, R)) to the groupoid of local coordinate transforms on the manifold and the local SO(3, 1; R) Lorentz group on the orthonormal frames (tetrad formalism) which are the symmetries of General Relativity. The point is to find out under what conditions any such model does vary from General Relativity. (We already have a good EFT for GR itself, and the result of the Bourgoin et al. paper is that it remains good.)


Half-jokingly one could say that what's conserved under the transformations of Lorentz group of the SME is the behaviour of the Standard Model under changes to the physics of gravity. A bit less jokingly, that corresponds fairly well to conserving the microscopic description of the centre of mass-energy-momentum rather than just the centre of mass-energy-momentum (at t=0 for some total energy) as in phys.se answer in the GP comment.


Note that when this article says “Lorentz symmetry” it really means “spacetime is a Lorentzian manifold”. This is bad physicists slang. We know that Lorentz symmetry is broken when gravity is non negligible. So these conservation laws don’t apply on large scales.


No, it means (local) Lorentz invariance violation (LIV) under the Standard Model Extension (SME) in curved spacetime.

In SME you write down an observer Lagrangian incorporating tensors, spinors, covariant derivatives, and so forth, and SME coefficients: L = L_gravity + L_SM + L_LIV + ... where SM is the Standard Model.

You can write down an L_LIV that is an extension of GR with or without torsion. The second you introduce nonvanishing torsion you are no longer in Riemann spacetime. Without torsion, however, you can keep yourself in a Lorentzian manifold and still introduce e.g. spontaneous (and thus preserving geometrical identities) Lorentz breaking in the L_LIV, as in Bumblebee models.

In General Relativity, Lorentz invariance is what you get when you put a metric with a signature of (-+++) or (+---) into the Einstein Field Equations and then look at the local isometries induced on the tangent spaces and find the O(3,1) group. But you could just as easily plug any signature into the EFEs - there's no mathematical restriction, and there are researchers who use all sorts of signatures (e.g. (+++++), which is manifestly not Lorentz invariant).


> (local) Lorentz invariance

This is also very misleading terminology, as curvature is a local invariant of a (semi) Riemannian manifold. Lorentz invariance is violated locally, even though the “magnitude” of this violation goes to zero if the volume of the neighborhood goes to zero.

> In General Relativity, Lorentz invariance is what you get when you put a metric with a signature of (-+++) or (+---) into the Einstein Field Equations and then look at the local isometries induced on the tangent spaces and find the O(3,1) group.

Local or not, isometries preserve curvature and Minkowski space has zero curvature.


How does your comment conflict with hansen's? He's just pointing out that Lorentz symmetries in GR are only local; there's no global conservations of energy.


Honestly, it's been a couple of days and I don't know what exactly I was on about when I should have been sleeping, except probably making the point that the Bourgoin et al paper was about the SME -- which is after all a modification of GR and the Standard Model in which it's normal to quantify arbitrary departures from Lorentz and CPT invariance -- rather than GR sensu strictissimo.

An SME model that preserves local Lorentz invariance everywhere that GR does (or at least, everywhere in the EFT limits) does not necessarily carry a Lorentzian manifold in its mathematical structure (e.g. LIFs might arise due to suppressed LIV effects in a more fundamental theory), and conversely, an SME model that does have a Lorentzian manifold background might still have some Lorentz invariance breaking term.

I think we're all in agreement but talking past each other in English a bit when it comes to GR itself.





Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: